Author Topic: Worst RPGS

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Lard

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #270 on: March 30, 2011, 09:29:25 PM »
I would it rather have gameplay, like FF12 did.

You could argue FF12 had just as little gameplay, or even less than 13.

By the end of the game, you could set up your battle tactics (there's a proper word for them but I can't remember what it is) and literally have the characters go in and fight the battle by themselves.

There's not much difference.

Also, I would say there was nothing inherently wrong with the core concept of FF13's story, it was just presented poorly, as opposed to FF12, which really had no story at all.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 09:33:57 PM by Lard »
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Hidoshi

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #271 on: March 30, 2011, 10:28:28 PM »
Gameplay has to do with how the game actually integrates narrative, characterisation, as well as regular functions that the player inputs. FFXII was full of gameplay, from the random, dynamically scheduled NPCs that you'd encounter while hunting, to the way in which you built characters and gambits. There is nothing wrong with player-scheduled AI. FFXII gave us a fuller realisation of what Star Ocean and Kingdom Hearts have been trying out for years.

It's a gross exaggeration to say that you can use the gambits to create a fully functioning auto-battle system. It can be used for automation where necessary (ie: fighting off small fry of lower levels), similar to how Suikoden gave you a one-shot autobattle, and how Earthbound used insta-battle. But for boss encounters? For even a regular trek around with par-level enemies? That's... That's silly.

Yeah, you can make the argument that FFXII has as little gameplay as FFXIII, but it's not one that holds any water. From a technical and player perspective, FFXII is from a far more play-centric school of design than FFXIII.

* * *

A related thought to tackle the story side of things. Execution is 99% of what matters when it comes to a narrative. Concepts are cheap and easy to come by. The fact is that FFXIII had a semi-complicated idea behind its story, but every part of it is somehow crippled. FFXII had a conversely simple story, about imperial dictatorship and rebellion, but its presentation was far more effective. From the slight facial ticks while talking and emoting, to the dialogue, to the actual fleshing out of even background characters, I'd say there's a lot more to FFXII's cast than some fans give credit for. How it goes under their radar is beyond me.

Sure, Vaan and Penelo? Milquetoast, but only because they're meant to be proxies for the player. Ashe is also an anomaly in the game, being both vanilla in personality and garishly dressed. But Basche, Balthier, Fran, Larsa, Vayne, and Cid? Emperor Gramis? They all had their individual motivations, their own personality quirks, style, and interesting asides.

Story isn't about the core concept at all. It's either about the components or the gestalt. Sometimes, with really good writers, both.

Parn

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #272 on: March 30, 2011, 10:47:33 PM »
FF13-2 is supposed to be better - Square Enix Europe has stated that the game "exceeds Final Fantasy XIII in every aspect" and that it has an evolved battle system of the original game.
What do they class as better though? Thats the worry.

so should we be expecting the equivalent of a bowl of dirt for dinner

because that would exceed the shit sandwich they gave us before

Commander Jubby Shepard

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #273 on: March 30, 2011, 11:00:26 PM »
...

I must be an extreme Japanophile or something if I enjoyed FFXIII as much as I did...
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Parn

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #274 on: March 30, 2011, 11:07:33 PM »
Check out this 18000 word review as to why the game is a shit sandwich.

http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=630

Dice

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #275 on: March 30, 2011, 11:15:42 PM »
Check out this 18000 word review as to why the game is a shit sandwich.

http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=630

I almost checked it out, but I realized I don't need 18,000 words worth of complaints.  If I wanted that and some humour, I go watch Yahtzee do it.... or listen to my mother (BA ZING, jk)
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Parn

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #276 on: March 30, 2011, 11:18:08 PM »
i hate reading it is so boring needs more explosions

Hidoshi

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #277 on: March 30, 2011, 11:18:22 PM »
Here. 1400 words on why we need to, as fans, STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR SHITTY GAMES.

http://markptjan.com/2011/03/30/excuses-excuses/

Lard

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #278 on: March 31, 2011, 12:59:31 AM »
A related thought to tackle the story side of things. Execution is 99% of what matters when it comes to a narrative. Concepts are cheap and easy to come by. The fact is that FFXIII had a semi-complicated idea behind its story, but every part of it is somehow crippled. FFXII had a conversely simple story, about imperial dictatorship and rebellion, but its presentation was far more effective. From the slight facial ticks while talking and emoting, to the dialogue, to the actual fleshing out of even background characters, I'd say there's a lot more to FFXII's cast than some fans give credit for. How it goes under their radar is beyond me.

Sure, Vaan and Penelo? Milquetoast, but only because they're meant to be proxies for the player. Ashe is also an anomaly in the game, being both vanilla in personality and garishly dressed. But Basche, Balthier, Fran, Larsa, Vayne, and Cid? Emperor Gramis? They all had their individual motivations, their own personality quirks, style, and interesting asides.

Story isn't about the core concept at all. It's either about the components or the gestalt. Sometimes, with really good writers, both.

Then it that respect, FF12 is as much of a failure as 13. The characters aren't memorable aside from Baltier. Fran is only memorable because she's dressed as a playboy bunny. The villains are interchangable and by the end of the story I was completely lost (and didn't care) what their motivation was. Nor did I care about any of the other characters. The story was slow, plodding and downright dull.

The execution in 12 is just as bad as 13's.
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Annubis

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #279 on: March 31, 2011, 01:09:42 AM »
Did anyone ever say 12 was better than 13?
I mean 13 is way better !!! Simply because of the graphics...

Lard

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #280 on: March 31, 2011, 01:11:59 AM »
Did anyone ever say 12 was better than 13?
I mean 13 is way better !!! Simply because of the graphics...

That's not really a good reason.
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Hidoshi

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #281 on: March 31, 2011, 01:27:50 AM »
A related thought to tackle the story side of things. Execution is 99% of what matters when it comes to a narrative. Concepts are cheap and easy to come by. The fact is that FFXIII had a semi-complicated idea behind its story, but every part of it is somehow crippled. FFXII had a conversely simple story, about imperial dictatorship and rebellion, but its presentation was far more effective. From the slight facial ticks while talking and emoting, to the dialogue, to the actual fleshing out of even background characters, I'd say there's a lot more to FFXII's cast than some fans give credit for. How it goes under their radar is beyond me.

Sure, Vaan and Penelo? Milquetoast, but only because they're meant to be proxies for the player. Ashe is also an anomaly in the game, being both vanilla in personality and garishly dressed. But Basche, Balthier, Fran, Larsa, Vayne, and Cid? Emperor Gramis? They all had their individual motivations, their own personality quirks, style, and interesting asides.

Story isn't about the core concept at all. It's either about the components or the gestalt. Sometimes, with really good writers, both.

Then it that respect, FF12 is as much of a failure as 13. The characters aren't memorable aside from Baltier. Fran is only memorable because she's dressed as a playboy bunny. The villains are interchangable and by the end of the story I was completely lost (and didn't care) what their motivation was. Nor did I care about any of the other characters. The story was slow, plodding and downright dull.

The execution in 12 is just as bad as 13's.

I think you need to qualify that outside of personal experience, though. It's easy to write Fran off as a playboy bunny, but again, she has her own motivations, explored firstly in the sequence at her village, and then laterally through the way in which she interacts with Balthier as well as Vaan. The cheesecake is beside the point.

The villains are hardly interchangeable. The Emperor is a strangely caring individual, who wants his sons to be at peace and his empire well-ordered. Vayne, by distinction, doesn't care much for human relationships, but is much more the dictator, though he plays a compassionate individual to win public favour. Cid is awfully touched in the head, on top of which rides a calculating and severe attitude towards political control. The Judges? Well, most of them are throwaway tertiaries, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Beyond that, I think the onus is on the player to set aside certain biases. It's easy, and yes I'm as guilty as the next man of this, to blind ourselves with our preconceptions about a thing. It's also easy to let fatigue set in and ruin how we receive the game's qualities. At the very least, we should be fair and balanced, and set aside what may be our own bad experiences when considering the merits of a game. I've had very, very poor experiences playing FFX, and overall? I don't like it. But I do acknowledge that it brought a lot to the table where world building is concerned. It had a diverse set of cultures, a wide variety of locales, and did a lot to make its world believable. Did I have a good time? Not really, but that's not what I should consider first and foremost. Your mileage may vary from mine, and I have to respect that.

But there's a difference between the overall quality of a game and the personal experience derived therein. Some games are guilty pleasures -- we like them for no good reason. Some games just don't jive with us, even though they're exceptional. The personal experience is not a foundation for critique. It factors into it, of course, but cannot be used as a basis for consideration. Quality has to be derived from a larger pool of factors (comparison to other titles, unique properties, gameplay and story integrations, world building, etc), and only then resolved with regard to the player experience to form a full picture.

FFXIII fails most of the technical test beyond its graphics and sound. If we take world-building and characterization to be our first fundamentals in determining an RPG's value, FFXII stands up pretty well by comparison. Its execution is far more complete and well delivered, even if you didn't like it.

xellos2099

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #282 on: March 31, 2011, 03:37:19 AM »
I couldn't find myself liking FF13. Too much cinematics and talking, too little of gameplay. And the available gameplay felt so...staged, that I didn't feel like I was playing a game at all. I'm glad I didn't buy it...

It is more like the story isn't really good itself....

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #283 on: March 31, 2011, 03:51:05 AM »
I think 12 has way more gameplay than 13, mostly due to the freedom you have right from the start almost. You can spend days exploring as far as you can before the world is blocked and you have to do the story for it to open up some more. With 13 you feel as though you are just tagging along for the ride, all decisions are made for you and you just do the fights between cutscenes.
Also the battle system in 12 is only AI controlled if you choose it to be, I only use basic healing gambits like if my health is below 25%, in 13 again you dont have a choice.

Aeolus

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Re: Worst RPGS
« Reply #284 on: March 31, 2011, 04:59:58 AM »
Frankly, I agree with what Hidoshi saying. As I've mentioned elsewhere on this board, FFXII did do some stupid shit with its gameplay in regards to things like random chests, license board, the need to buy everything with far too limited funds even in the face of the loot system, the horribly unintuitive bazaar system, useless summons, utter bullshit (Zodiac Spear/Diamond Armlet/That one dagger/Omega Weapon XII/That one 100 floor dungeon that's actually part of the fucking plot/the Sand Sea/That glitch that let's nothing but attack query/that one sidequest in Arcadia/ect...), ect... But it also did several things right like reducing the micromanaging with the Gambit System, having a world that's more than a cluster of dots connected by dotted lines on some map, having stuff like random bosses in the middle of the desert, letting you actually fight real hoards up to and including Zombie Hoards, useful buffs for the first time in a mainline console FF game that aren't stuff like Mighty Guard or Life 3, the fact that you can totally bench either Vaan and Penelo and only have to see them in cutscenes and around town in Vaan's case.

In all of these cases though they're more like minor annoyances or conveniences, bugs on a windshield or peanut butter bunnies in ice cream. You can still see out the windshield (kinda) and there's more to the ice cream than just peanut butter flavored chocolates. In this case you can still play FFXII even if you don't like peanut butter or let yourself get distracted by that one smear of bug guts that just had to be the fattest fucking airborne insect before it smeared itself all over your windshield. Regardless of whether you can see beyond all of that or not there is still a game under there.

FFXIII on the other hand is more of a tech demo than a real game. A proof of concept. A collection of ideas put through their paces in a simulation. Everything that happens is because the developers wanted it to happen. Everything is staged, every battle measured in it's distance and challenge carefully, every direction of growth carefully planned and charted, every new strategy is written out carefully on the wall and put through its paces like a Zelda item meant only for the segment it's featured in, every party member has their script carefully set to be seen without exception, every word spoken, every action taken, and nothing significant is left to the player's whim. Many RPGs suffer from this acutely but none so thoroughly as FFXIII where you can't even choose your party member, where you can't choose their role to play beyond your very limited options which don't even matter as you're not getting past that next battle unless you're playing by the rules of the area, where you can't even avoid a single battle unless the game tells you that you have to. By the time you get to the basic freedoms held within your basic JRPG the game is over. You can't even overpower the final boss the first time around as the game wont allow even that. You can't grind your way out of a bind because you hit your growth limit, you can't upgrade your equipment worth a shit early on as you don't have the material or even the money to allow it, and even then only a certain pair of items even matter as the rest are either too costly or too inefficient to use and are better sold for extra money to expedite the process even slightly.

Basically there's no meaningful variation, no meaningful choice, every bit is planned, staged, coerced. If you couldn't make the grade then you weren't doing as you were told, everything only works when the developers want it too. You can't minimalist, you can't brute force, you can't shove Vanillie, Snow, & Hope on the bench, you can't access that end game shop/treasure trove early for some game breaking gear, you can't grind on whatever for huge amounts of whatever to unlock that awesome ability early, you can't look at GameFags for the solution to the dungeon puzzle and thus solve it early to avoid having to do the rest, and you can't even bring along someone different to a plot dump in the hopes of making something dire and serious into something unintentionally funny (thankfully the game does this part for you pretty well as well, moms are tough indeed).
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