jrpg hate in america.

[Starmongoose]

My simile has grown a mind of its own.

[Lard]

I've said it before; but I credit FF's constant success in the States part of the fact they diverted from the cartoon-y style that FF7 had and kept it real (which seems to work for audiences here).  

Nevertheless, numerous Japanese publishers enjoy a ton of success here too, no?

FF9 was cartoony. (Though it was a much better game than FF8. But hell, Legend of Dragoon would be a better game than FF8 if it didn't have such a terrible battle system)

I think the publishers that are having success now, like Atlus, XSeed and Level 5,are the ones that are bringing over interesting things that may be Japanese but are also things we haven't seen before. I think that's why stuff like the newer Persona games, Professor Layton, 999 and even stuff like Retro Game Challenge seems to get buzz.

[Dice]

I've said it before; but I credit FF's constant success in the States part of the fact they diverted from the cartoon-y style that FF7 had and kept it real (which seems to work for audiences here). 

Nevertheless, numerous Japanese publishers enjoy a ton of success here too, no?

FF9 was cartoony. (Though it was a much better game than FF8. But hell, Legend of Dragoon would be a better game than FF8 if it didn't have such a terrible battle system)

I think the publishers that are having success now are the ones like Atlus, XSeed and Level 5 that are bringing over interesting things that may be Japanese but is also stuff we haven't seen before. I think that's why stuff like the newer Persona games, Professor Layton, 999 and even stuff like Retro Game Challenge seems to get buzz.

Mileage varies in that point.  Besides, what are the sales figures on some of these games?  My point isn't trying to look at cult-value...  Atlus, Level5 and XSeed *does* make interesting games, but....
...and, wait a minute, in talking of visual aesthetics, I'd actually chalk-up Layton to French animated stylings way more than Japanese (which could be a point of appeal for non-J-ers).
FF9 still tried to retain semi-real elements that could be interpreted more "cartoony" than necessarily anime (you see the especially with Steiner and various NPCs - those who don't fit typcical "anime" conventions).  I think the only title in the FF series (main series anyhow) that was overtly anime was FF7 (before then, the graphics were too small to call them out as anything other than tiny-sprites, not "chibi-SD" ones; furthermore, anime exposure wasn't all that strong in NA by this point for anyone to care, no?).  FF8 and after seemed to have taken a more realistic approach that stuck-on well with the (and I hate using the word for it) "maturing" North American audience who stopped being taken in by the J-charm.

[Themadcow]

Development costs are the killer. Every new generation of console brings with it new demands on development costs to fulfil the promise of better graphics and sound. Unfortunately, good JRPG experiences have rarely depended on such things so they end up having to attach the significant development costs to a well known name in order to guarantee a certain amount of sales.

I guess that's why handhelds are the RPG format of choice - low graphics expectations allowing for more resource on gamplay and storytelling.

[PotRoast]

...and, wait a minute, in talking of visual aesthetics, I'd actually chalk-up Layton to French animated stylings way more than Japanese (which could be a point of appeal for non-J-ers).

Which brings us back to whole ignorance thing. The visual style used for JRPGs is quite diverse. But you tell the right person it's from Japan and they poo poo it no matter which country's artistic style was most influential in its development.

[MeshGearFox]

I guess that's why handhelds are the RPG format of choice - low graphics expectations allowing for more resource on gamplay and storytelling.

Hi 1999 called they want their strawman back~

Serious refutation:

1. Unless you have a tiny studio art isn't handled by the 'gamplay' or storytelling dudes. No resource diversion there.

2. High-quality pixel art and high-quality 3D art don't really take different amount of 'work' or 'effort' inherently. Especially if the artists are actually good at what they are doing.

3. The DS is a perfectly capable piece of hardware and does not really have inherently lowered expectations about visual quality, whatever something so nebulous even means. I'm guessing development costs on the DS are cheaper since the hardware is simpler in other regards and isn't some multiprocessor clusterfuck that is impossible to program.

[Dice]

...and, wait a minute, in talking of visual aesthetics, I'd actually chalk-up Layton to French animated stylings way more than Japanese (which could be a point of appeal for non-J-ers).

Which brings us back to whole ignorance thing. The visual style used for JRPGs is quite diverse. But you tell the right person it's from Japan and they poo poo it no matter which country's artistic style was most influential in its development.

They can be.  I'm kinda deviating here...but...  Some games make a blatant effort to be something other than J (Layton), but I can't help but think how ...ubiquitous "anime" styles are in Japan - it seems if you're a cartoonist in that country, you ARE drawing anime's big eyes, full and colourful hairdos, and whatever else.  I personally find American cartoons more diverse in terms of style at times; even Japanese realism tends to look unquestionably anime -- in fact, have they ever made a cartoon that *wasn't* anime-esque? (as is, FF titles containing almost impossible looking humans at times, and Prof Layton titles squeezed some anime broads into their title's youthful females).

Then I stop and question -- is this all a mere matter of perspective?

[MindCandy]

...and, wait a minute, in talking of visual aesthetics, I'd actually chalk-up Layton to French animated stylings way more than Japanese (which could be a point of appeal for non-J-ers).

Which brings us back to whole ignorance thing. The visual style used for JRPGs is quite diverse. But you tell the right person it's from Japan and they poo poo it no matter which country's artistic style was most influential in its development.

They can be.  I'm kinda deviating here...but...  Some games make a blatant effort to be something other than J (Layton), but I can't help but think how ...ubiquitous "anime" styles are in Japan - it seems if you're a cartoonist in that country, you ARE drawing anime's big eyes, full and colourful hairdos, and whatever else.  I personally find American cartoons more diverse in terms of style at times; even Japanese realism tends to look unquestionably anime -- in fact, have they ever made a cartoon that *wasn't* anime-esque? (as is, FF titles containing almost impossible looking humans at times, and Prof Layton titles squeezed some anime broads into their title's youthful females).

Then I stop and question -- is this all a mere matter of perspective?

Well look at the ff games, especially the difference between 7 and 8. Nobody can arfue that the costumes and world art weren't anime in nature, but I thought the characters in 8 sure looked much more realistic.

[MeshGearFox]

...and, wait a minute, in talking of visual aesthetics, I'd actually chalk-up Layton to French animated stylings way more than Japanese (which could be a point of appeal for non-J-ers).

Which brings us back to whole ignorance thing. The visual style used for JRPGs is quite diverse. But you tell the right person it's from Japan and they poo poo it no matter which country's artistic style was most influential in its development.

They can be.  I'm kinda deviating here...but...  Some games make a blatant effort to be something other than J (Layton), but I can't help but think how ...ubiquitous "anime" styles are in Japan - it seems if you're a cartoonist in that country, you ARE drawing anime's big eyes, full and colourful hairdos, and whatever else.  I personally find American cartoons more diverse in terms of style at times; even Japanese realism tends to look unquestionably anime -- in fact, have they ever made a cartoon that *wasn't* anime-esque? (as is, FF titles containing almost impossible looking humans at times, and Prof Layton titles squeezed some anime broads into their title's youthful females).

Then I stop and question -- is this all a mere matter of perspective?

Anime is sort of interesting in that a lot of the common features you see in it aren't really limited to anime. I don't know a lot about cartoons in general, but I think what you see in a lot of Western animation is like, heavily rooted in Chuck Jones and Walt Disney. Which wasn't that dissimilar from what you saw, IDK, from Osamu Tezuka (Lion King being a shitty ripoff of Kimba notwithstanding).

Although I probably would also raise the point that I think anime's just gotten really bad looking lately. I don't really watch a lot of it anymore thanks to my lack of cable, but it's like, yeah, there's really great looking stuff like Ghost in the Shell, but then you also get stuff like Full Metal Alchemist that's pretty generic looking (albeit not badly animated), or Naruto which is BARELY ANIMATED AT ALL apparently I mean seriously 50% of an episode will just be closeups of eyes shifting back and forth or dramatic pauses where nothing happens.

Also I think a lot of Westerners tend to call everything from Japan anime even if it isn't. Jack Layton was brought up as an example of being closer to French animation. Kaneko's art is... idk something between modernist and art deco. Legend of Mana and Romancing Song were pretty much based in like, Indo-European folk art. And Odin Sphere seems REALLY heavily inspired by Indonesian shadow puppetry. I've heard them all described as anime, though. There is an anime influence in a lot of JRPG art, but there's an anime influence on a lot of Western art as well. I wouldn't say that MOST JRPGs have a hardcore anime style in the same way that IDK Tales does.

[Sagacious-T]

Guys, Americans dont hate anime.
I've met the most ghetto ass dudes who love Dragonball Z
I don't know how much you were all picked on in high school for wearing naruto headbands but this isnt the reality of the world

[Annubis]

Guys, Americans dont hate anime.
I've met the most ghetto ass dudes who love Dragonball Z
I don't know how much you were all picked on in high school for wearing naruto headbands but this isnt the reality of the world

but but but... even I make fun of narutards.

[MindCandy]

Guys, Americans dont hate anime.
I've met the most ghetto ass dudes who love Dragonball Z
I don't know how much you were all picked on in high school for wearing naruto headbands but this isnt the reality of the world

but but but... even I make fun of narutards.

Yeah, I love me some animme too, but if you ran around with a dragonball shirt or Naruto headband i'd make fun of you too.

[Starmongoose]

Well that's...dumb.

[Annubis]

The difference between a fan of Naruto and a Narutard is akin to the difference between admiration and obsession.

[Sagacious-T]

You're all hypocrites