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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: The Merged Final Fantasy XIII-2 Thread  (Read 106548 times)
Saviour
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« Reply #1050 on: February 02, 2012, 05:25:05 PM »

I'm a few hours and enjoying it a lot so far.
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Zik
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« Reply #1051 on: February 02, 2012, 06:33:53 PM »

It was inevitable that they'd reduce the difficulty of the game overall. The amount of complaints and hyperbole in XIII over random encounter difficulty, doom counters, leader death = game over, etc. was fairly significant. Doom counter replaced with a soft 'max HP damage' system that is reversible, you can switch leaders after the leader goes down, random encounters are now easy to splat with little strategy, etc. When most of the reviews state the battles are "faster" or "fast paced" what they mean is they're easier to steamroll instead of having to use appropriate strategy so the battle doesn't take 10x as long and end in a 1 star battle result.

What? There were really people that though that FFXIII was difficult O_O !

I try to enjoy FFXIII-2, but the fights are sooo boring... I always stop after 1 hour or so of gametime and I usually play a lot longer.
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mjrpgfan
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« Reply #1052 on: February 02, 2012, 07:14:30 PM »

The problem with that thought line is Final Fantasy, since FF VII (although arguably at around V), the Final Fantasy IP is pretty much 'a new IP with every game'.
Going to have to disagree there. Older FFs, despite shuffling the combat mechanics around, were still RPGs at their core. FF XIII messed around with genre conventions beyond combat such as linearity and grinding/scoring systems/growth caps/combat balance, which is mainly what set fans off against the game.

My sentiments exactly, pretty much. It felt like the breath of fresh air the series badly needed.
Nooo you're supposed to disagree with me and hate me, I'm the bad guy, etc. etc.

As sad as it sounds, FFXIII is the most difficult single player FF (not counting the MMOs).
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #1053 on: February 02, 2012, 07:42:00 PM »

"Hard" seems to be a difficult-to-define term. FF13 being hard is like Metal Gear Solid being hard... you die a lot, but dieing isn't a particularly big setback, as you just start back at the beginning of the battle (in MGS you start at the beginning of the room). Yes, I died more in FF13 than any other game in the series, but if you add up all the time lost due to dieing, other games are A LOT harder. Back in FF4, dieing was a big deal because it meant that you lost a whole 30 minutes of gameplay. By FF6-X, it was more like 10 minutes. FF12 seemed to dial it up again, as areas were significantly larger and save areas much more sparce, more like 15-20 minutes. But FF13 dials it back to a loss of 1 minute for normal battles, maybe 5 for bosses.

I'm in the Brescha ruins now. Glad we actually find out who that Alyssa character was! That was one thing about the demo that was bizzare. You see a cutscene with Alyssa standing around in the beginning... then for no apparent reason, 20 minutes later she's talking to you over a walky-talky without any explanation. They cut out one 3 minute section that introduces her.

Damn I'm loving this game though. I stopped last night to ask myself, "am I enjoying this?" and I realized that I really was, I was really feeling happy and excited. I can't say I felt the same while playing FF13. Oh, and Noel is a GREAT character! I really like the dialog they wrote for him. For once, he seems very realistic and down to earth. If you ask him something, he gives you a straight-up answer instead of some bullshit, "oh, it's nothing" kind of response that we're used to getting in jRPGs. I finally feel like S-E has flushed out a world of characters who actually have lives, instead of being props for a story. Everyone has a profession, interests, and unique personality traits. The whole thing with Serah dealing with the children was really a new direction, something we commonly miss in RPGs.

So far, I'm kinda bewildered as to the low review scores. People said it started off bad, but honestly, I LOVE this kind of openning. FF13 started too fast. I never got a chance to get my berrings, learn who the people were before they were faced with life-changing events. I like intros like FF8, FF9, and FF12 that ease into the whole plot business. FF13-2 is a little faster then that, but even after the plot starts, things aren't so screwed up that you can't get your berrings. FFX and FFXIII start off so abruptly that you don't get to know anything. FFVII rectifies this by slowing the pace down after 10 minutes and giving you your berings later.
Quote from: ZeroHitaro
Going to have to disagree there. Older FFs, despite shuffling the combat mechanics around, were still RPGs at their core. FF XIII messed around with genre conventions beyond combat such as linearity and grinding/scoring systems/growth caps/combat balance, which is mainly what set fans off against the game.

I agree, but from that standpoint, FFX really was the biggest departure. After an extremely open world like FF9, FFX went down to being complete tunnel vision. FFXIII was maybe more (slightly), but by then we were used to it. I blame FFX for the linearity trend. In some ways, FFX is more linear, at least FFXIII doesn't play like a giant progress bar! But the new low that FFXIII was the absense of NPC communication and non-hostile areas.
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eelhouse.net
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Agent D.
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« Reply #1054 on: February 02, 2012, 07:52:13 PM »

The problem with that thought line is Final Fantasy, since FF VII (although arguably at around V), the Final Fantasy IP is pretty much 'a new IP with every game'.
Going to have to disagree there. Older FFs, despite shuffling the combat mechanics around, were still RPGs at their core. FF XIII messed around with genre conventions beyond combat such as linearity and grinding/scoring systems/growth caps/combat balance, which is mainly what set fans off against the game.

My sentiments exactly, pretty much. It felt like the breath of fresh air the series badly needed.
Nooo you're supposed to disagree with me and hate me, I'm the bad guy, etc. etc.

As sad as it sounds, FFXIII is the most difficult single player FF (not counting the MMOs).
Um no, that would be a numbrr of other ff titles, including 2, 4, and 5. Hell the original was also harder than 13. If you thought 13 was even remotely difficult, you should stop playing rpgs. The only hard part of 13 was enduring the story to the end. Now THAT  was hard.
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mjrpgfan
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« Reply #1055 on: February 02, 2012, 08:01:46 PM »

Um no, that would be a numbrr of other ff titles, including 2, 4, and 5. Hell the original was also harder than 13. If you thought 13 was even remotely difficult, you should stop playing rpgs.
Grinding is not a skill.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #1056 on: February 02, 2012, 08:24:53 PM »

I never had to grind. In fact, grinding seemed to do very little in FF13. Xenoblade required grinding, Dragon Quests always require some grinding... FF12 really was aided by grinding. I never felt like I was grinding in FF13.

Honestly, FF12 was a much harder game, I would say, then FF13. FF12 was the only Final Fantasy since FF6 to earn it's "difficult" card. FF13 killed you a lot, but had you back up and kicking ass in no time. I remember losing 15-20 minutes of gameplay from deaths in FF12. Can't say the same for FF13. Wait... I take that back, there was one boss that I had to play for 90 minutes straight before beating, I forget which one, I think it was the one where Vanille gets her summon. Was it some giant carniverus plant? I really don't rememeber.
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eelhouse.net
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Farron
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« Reply #1057 on: February 02, 2012, 08:45:23 PM »

I'm with you on XII's difficulty. I thought it to be by far the most consistently difficult title of the series. FFIII and IV may became a little harder towards halfway or the end but XII is never easy.
Like you said, when you die, most of the times you are going to get way back and some areas have some pretty tough enemies.

I remember back when XII was new some people in another forum dedicated to FFXII saying the game was easy or something along those lines... Maybe it's easy compared to Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry 3 or the optional dungeon in Tri-Ace's games, but certainly not compared to the rest of the series. Maybe those guy were the ones that didn't mind grinding for levels and getting awesome gear like the zodiac spear early in the game.
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Agent D.
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« Reply #1058 on: February 02, 2012, 08:56:35 PM »

Um no, that would be a numbrr of other ff titles, including 2, 4, and 5. Hell the original was also harder than 13. If you thought 13 was even remotely difficult, you should stop playing rpgs.
Grinding is not a skill.
No grinding isn't a skill, but the patience to grind to game breaking stats is. Unlike every other FF game, over powering your characters wasn't necessary, but proved helpful when trying to just enjoy story. XIII, however, only was fun during battles. Capping was...well, a matter of time.  I mean shit, fighting a boss in an area of ffxiii usually raised you up an entire crystarium level anyway. To call xiii difficult because you couldn't grind is silly. Xiii wasn't hard. Even its special fights were just a matter of figuring out abusive paradigm strategies. The only fights I ever lost were the first orphan fight cuz he poisoned lightning and then hit me with the 1 remaining hp move, and 3 of the eidolons, and that's because vanille's eidolon was a bitch before I started using fang correctly, while the other ones were sazh's and fang's because I just plain wasn't paying attention. In all honesty, no ff title was remotely hard, outside of tactics for psx, and only because 1v1 wiegraf was a test in math skills ( knowing movement areas, ct setups, and speed abuse), while elmdor was only hard if you chose not to steal his genji gear (or just the sword and glove). Hard rpgs are readily available, just don't look to ff series for em.

Regarding FFxii being hard...it wasn't. The difficulty came from the fact that auto battle could easily be your doom if you weren't paying attention. Once you learned how to actually look while you did nothing, xii was once again simple. Xiii's one big pat on the back was taking the gambit system of xii and making it more automatic while being more interactive. I like the idea and all, but at the end of the day, I react better than a.i. ever will. However selecting 6 moves from a clunky menu will still be faster via an auto battle command. Xii I GUESS could be considered hard due to the nuance of auto fighting for those unaquainted with mmos. It is a slight....very slight learning curve.
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Kevadu
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« Reply #1059 on: February 02, 2012, 09:09:17 PM »

FFXIII was hard?  Are you kidding me?  Time consuming, yes.  Lot's of enemies had pointlessly high numbers of hitpoints so the battles dragged on and on and on, but I wouldn't call a game where you successfully win every single battle (and get 5 stars for the matter...) with the exact same strategy 'hard'.  Not even close.

That was my biggest beef with the battle system.  There just weren't that many options to choose from so finding the optimal solution was trivial.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #1060 on: February 02, 2012, 09:13:12 PM »

I dunno, I never had problem with the auto-battles in FFXII. I've heard people say as you have, but I never once went, "NO! DON'T DO THAT!" I got pretty good at programming the gambits like IF...THEN statements, and then I manually controlled things as much as I needed to. But still, I'd say the game was difficult. There were many areas that were just long and grueling, with many over-leveled enemies that you're supposed to avoid until later. If you manage to avoid them, you're fine, but it wasn't always easy. The game also becomes so open that it's easy to walk into the wrong area and get instantly bum-fucked.

Was FF12 the hardest RPG I've ever played? Absolutely not, but it deffinitely posed more of a challenge then most of the other games in the series. But calling Final Fantasy an "easy" series is not really correct either. I'd say the Final Fantasy series is of moderate difficulty. There are many RPGs that are WAY easier than Final Fantasy. Tales games (except for the totaly unbalanced and random Vesparia) are rediculously easy. Game Arts games are pretty easy, except maybe Grandia III... again, very uneven. Wild Arms games definitely don't pose much of a challange. Neither do any of the Gust RPGs that I'm familliar with.

Atlus games are pretty challenging, as are some Tri-Ace games (if you can endure the wonkiness and terrible plots). Obviously Demon/Dark Souls. Dragon Quests are challenging, but only if you don't grind a bit as you go. But I wouldn't say that Final Fantasy is at the "easy" end of the spectrum.

FFXIII, on the other hand, was a walk in the park, until a certain boss killed you 10 times in a row, and then became a walk in the park again.
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eelhouse.net
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #1061 on: February 02, 2012, 10:13:54 PM »

Wild Arms games definitely don't pose much of a challenge.

Wild Arms XF begs to differ. XD
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Eusis
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« Reply #1062 on: February 02, 2012, 10:20:39 PM »

Wild Arms games definitely don't pose much of a challenge.

Wild Arms XF begs to differ. XD

Strategy spin-offs are almost always the exception, I swear. FFT was probably the hardest post-SNES (probably post-NES) FF title, and you could still break the game wide open and make it a joke eventually.
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Agent D.
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« Reply #1063 on: February 02, 2012, 10:37:58 PM »

I'm sorry if I insult anyone with this, but I can safely say that FF games are to rpgs as super mario is to platformers. They are each hand in hand responsible for their genre respectively, but lets face it....even a five year old can beat mario games. FF titles are not hard. Cheap at times, sure, but difficulty should be something that isn't easily swatted away by power leveling. Alot of atlus rpgs presented difficulty by giving you encounters with enemies who had strengths and weaknesses that could really throw your basic A/X button mashing out the window. DDS was a great example of this, with those assholes who would cast status effect spells like confusion and instant death or critical hp, adding to that the high and low solar energy thing that made you half devil and made you really easy to kill. Those were difficult times, but god help me they were fun( especially 2). Any FF game can be eaaily picked up and learned within one sitting, and generally the enemies are never so painstackingly hard that simply dedicating the old 2:1 attacker healer ratio wouldn't work to solve problems. Hell I'm pretty sure if you dedicated one person to casting white wind and had the other 2 attack only, you could probably beat emerald weapon in vii with relative ease (assuming you still prepped final attack-revive/pheonix or knew about and prepped for aire tam storm). Don't get me wrong on all this, I still liked most of the ff games, easily 94% of em. Just can't say I wouldn't giggle at someone saying that any final fantasy game was too hard.


Just for lulz btw, friend of mine who didn't really understand rpgs too well was running through VII maybe ten years ago. We were bsing about it, and after a few jokes at his expense he told me where he was, which was nibelheim mountain, fighting the boss there. Sadly, one of the few enemies whose name I can not remember off hand, but he's the first who casts trine on you. I sat him down and had him show me how he fought the boss. Mind you, it's all in all his first rpg experience so he doesn't really appreciate turn based combat and gets antsy, mashing circle for instant attacks. I stopped him and said try using some status enhancements. He tosses around barrier and all of a sudden, he doesn't die as hard. Then, I show him hyper status, and he gets more limit breaks. Before he knows it, asshole's dead, and he is on his way to meet good ole mr highwind.
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Eusis
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« Reply #1064 on: February 02, 2012, 11:14:40 PM »

even a five year old can beat mario games.

Incidentally the age I beat SMB3! But I DO think they have to be competent at playing games.

... And this is nitpicky, but I'd say DRAGON QUEST is the Mario of RPGs, FF is to radical about reinventing itself whereas Mario's only had a few major jumps (to 3D, Yoshi/Wario spin-offs that are just that, spin-offs), which might make it closer to Sonic except it's more reliably been GOOD unlike Sonic, though the fan reaction DOES match come to think of it.
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