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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Mickeymac92
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« Reply #1650 on: September 14, 2012, 12:49:36 AM »

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about, Kevuda. Usually it's the opposite from what I've seen - no matter how many new units they present, the "good guys" always find a way to win. Sure, maybe in the first few episodes it's all about the newer tech, but it doesn't take long until the other side gets even better tech. A little more specific examples would be helpful, though. I have a selective memory when it comes to Mecha fights.

I will say that technology is a factor in modern warfare, so it's not like that would be entirely unrealistic.
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Aeolus
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« Reply #1651 on: September 14, 2012, 01:19:29 AM »

I don't know specifically what Klyde was referring to, but I'll tell you what bothers me about mecha shows.  There are a lot of mecha shows in which all battles are automatically won by whoever has the newest robots.  Strategy, numbers, logistics, training, etc. don't seem to mean a thing.  It drives me nuts to the point where I just can't enjoy these shows.  Unit A could attack an exhausted nearly-out-of-supplies unit B by surprise with 10 times the numbers, but if unit B has cooler robots than unit A they don't stand a chance.  They might as well save themselves the trouble and just run away from the start.

Maybe that's why I was actually able to enjoy Turn-A Gundam.  There actually was a massive technology gap there.  One side had futuristic giant robots and the other side had basically 1920s tech.  It made sense that the 1920s tech would lose!  Of course then they introduce the ancient-buried-but-apparently-better-than-anything-current robot macguffin, so nevermind that...

The only good thing (not to say ridiculous of which there was plenty) to come out of Double O Gundam was an episode that was literally this. The four Gundams are still technological monsters at this point but they've pissed off enough people to get them to band together and set up a trap that involved a faux display of violence followed by endless wave after wave of mooks bombarding an almost featureless stretch of terrain with said Gundams in it. Que the majority of the episode montaging over the course of the day as the Gundam pilots struggle with the fact that they aren't the brick shithouses that their machines are and that sooner or later they're going to hit the ends of their rope. And then more Gundams show up to ruin everybody's day (including the rest of the show's because they mark the part where the ambiguous nature of the protagonist's efforts become immediately rewritten into the efforts of team good guys).

Also Turn A Gundam is the best Gundam (well okay, Turn A and G).
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Ranadiel
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« Reply #1652 on: September 14, 2012, 08:04:32 AM »

@Ranadiel

I can pretty much guarantee you Wing won't stack up to SEED or Code Geass. Heck, as much as I like those shows, they probably wouldn't hold up well under scrutiny. I don't like analyze the shows I watch, I just sit back and enjoy, so when Gundam Wing has lots of problems that are obvious even to me, I think it's safe to say that it's not that great.

I mean, I still enjoy Gundam Wing - I've rewatched it twice in the last 12 months - but it lacks character development, most of the characters are either stupid or insane (despite glorifying them), the fights are mostly boring and lacking intensity, it lacks pretty much any attention to detail...really, I found very little to praise. It has it's moments of brilliance, but they're kinda rare. It does have a great soundtrack, though, and I love the mecha designs; Duo is still a fun character, despite nearly as crazy as everyone else, and I still love that scene where Heero blows up his Gundam, even though I still think he had plenty of other options.

It's not all bad, but if you're like me and remember it as being this really awesome show, you'd be in for a pretty rude awakening. I'm just hoping to knock down your expectations a good couple of notchs so if you ever do watch it again (it's all available for free, legal streaming on Crunchyroll right now, btw), so you won't be nearly as disappointed and bitter about it as I've seen a lot of people be.
Yeah I am sort of dreading doing a full rewatch of Gundam Wing because I am aware that there is definatly some nostalgia tinting my memories of it. I occasionally have watched one or two episodes and yeah I sort of know what is coming. The thing that bugs me the most about it though is that I don't really care for the animation style anymore. I'm sure I'll still get some enjoyment from it though.

As for Code Geass and Gundam Seed, I've rewatched both of them in past year or so and I found both of them to still be good. I admit there wasn't as much action as I remembered there being in Code Geass which was disapointing, but I still enjoyed it. As for Gundam Seed, there are portions I prefer to skip but as a whole I find it enjoyable.....Gundam Seed Destiny I prefer to skip most of the beginning because I hate Shin and the Impulse, but the later parts are good when they give up on Shin being the main character. >.>

I really wish I could get into some Mecha stuff.... I mean there is soooo much of it, I'm sure boat loads of it would really do it for me but all the ones I have seen I can't stand.... Code Geas and Gundam both fall into that category (though admitingly I've only seen a pinch of Gundam)... I loved Evangelion though... do you have any suggestions in that respect (meaning, more psychological and story driven and less "tech-ee" stuff)??
Hmm I don't have a wide range of animes I have seen(most anime I have seen was on Cartoon Network or Adult Swim at some point), but have you ever seen Big O? It has a very unique vibe to it. I can't say that I love it, but it is enjoyable and I wouldn't really describe it as "tech-ee" as it is set in a world where everyone has lost their memories and so the giant robots are a lost technology. I should however mention that the ending makes absolutely no sense to me. I sort of think I get what was intended, but I really don't know.

I don't know specifically what Klyde was referring to, but I'll tell you what bothers me about mecha shows.  There are a lot of mecha shows in which all battles are automatically won by whoever has the newest robots.  Strategy, numbers, logistics, training, etc. don't seem to mean a thing.  It drives me nuts to the point where I just can't enjoy these shows.  Unit A could attack an exhausted nearly-out-of-supplies unit B by surprise with 10 times the numbers, but if unit B has cooler robots than unit A they don't stand a chance.  They might as well save themselves the trouble and just run away from the start.
Mecha isn't the only genre which does this. To use One Piece as an example(as it is my favorite battle manga) at the end of the Fishman Island arc there is a giant battle between the Straw Hat Pirates and the New Fishman Pirates. The Straw Hats have about 10 people on their side while the New Fishman Pirates have an army of 10,000. Luffy takes down around 5,000 of the fodder in about 5 seconds and then the other 5,000 are decimated in a battle. Why? To show off the strength of the main characters after they had finished a training arc.

For most mecha shows, the only way to really give a character a significant power boost is to give them a new mecha as training just isn't seen as being a viable power up for whatever reason(or because upgrades allow them to sell more toys). It is just the mecha genre's version of a single powerful character can turn the tide of battle that is common to various battle mangas and animes.
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Mickeymac92
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« Reply #1653 on: September 14, 2012, 10:41:24 AM »

Unit A could attack an exhausted nearly-out-of-supplies unit B by surprise with 10 times the numbers, but if unit B has cooler robots than unit A they don't stand a chance.  They might as well save themselves the trouble and just run away from the start.

This is what I get for posting at 1 am. I know exactly what you're talking about now, and I hate it, too most of the time. Highly excessive numbers where it's obvious that they couldn't get out unscathed without some kind of good strategy, yet they just bull through it anyways and 9 times out of 10 it's because they were better equipped, seems to be especially common in modern mecha, and it's why I have trouble enjoying them. It's okay every once in a while, especially if it has a purpose (like to show off a newer piece of tech or a newfound skill), IMO, but a lot of shows seem to take it too far, especially when a show seems to base most of its action around it (looking at you, Gundam Wing and SEED Destiny). Then it devalues it until it just becomes boring and predictable, though I'll admit I thought Code Geass' action was still fun to watch despite being equally guilty of all of that. I'm still trying to figure that one out. I do agree with the implication that Turn A Gundam has some of the best fights in Mecha. That's really how it should be done, IMO.

Armored Trooper VOTOMS might be more your thing, Kevuda. The main dude usually uses comparable, if not the exact same units that his enemies are using, so pretty much all of the fights so far (plus the ones I watched on youtube) have required raw skill and strategy to win.

Fang of the Sun Dougram, VOTOMS' predecessor (but unrelated story-wise), also relies heavily on strategy, though tech is still very much a factor, albiet it affects both sides for once.
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« Reply #1654 on: September 14, 2012, 06:50:00 PM »

The biggest obstacle to mecha shows as far as that goes has always been marketability. They want to sell their models, so they end up needing to have said robots look "cool" by mowing down tons and tons of grunt suits, even when it makes no sense. The early episodes of Code Geass avoided this by having the mecha not be a focal point of the show, which made Lelouch's maneuvers with them interesting. Gundam 08thMS tended to avoid this a lot more as well.
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« Reply #1655 on: September 15, 2012, 06:23:02 AM »

The biggest obstacle to mecha shows as far as that goes has always been marketability. They want to sell their models, so they end up needing to have said robots look "cool" by mowing down tons and tons of grunt suits, even when it makes no sense. The early episodes of Code Geass avoided this by having the mecha not be a focal point of the show, which made Lelouch's maneuvers with them interesting. Gundam 08thMS tended to avoid this a lot more as well.

This is also the reason why almost all mecha series fall apart during their second seasons if they have them. Regardless of where the director/writer wanted to go with it, any mecha show that gets a second season is 100% guaranteed to shill for the model kits with the rest of it either revolving around the director/writer's desperate fight against the meddling executives (and the meddling executives winning every time), it getting sabotaged by the director/writer because "Dammit! If anybody's puttin' baby in the corner it might as well be me.", or nothing at all because it was always a paper thin excuse to design and market more models.

I really can't think of any noticeable exceptions to this rule, that isn't firmly in OVA territory or softcore porn.
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« Reply #1656 on: September 18, 2012, 12:02:12 PM »

Pretty much for that reason is why I've always marveled at Turn A for being allowed to be made the way it was, and that it was actually allowed to run its full 50-episode course without it (at least obviously) having influences outside of Tomino. I know he created Gundam and all, but pretty much everything he made after Zeta Gundam was either so-so or bombed financially, so I'm surprised he was allowed as much control as he had over Turn A.

Well, one episode of AGE left to go. I was a bit surprised that they decided to

Code:
kill Zeheart

in this episode, but it was more of a "oh, expected it to happen, just not now" instead of "wow, didn't see that coming". AGE is a pretty awful show, but I guess I'll save my detailed thoughts for next week when it's all done and over with. Still, I don't really actually feel anything from the show, unlike a lot of fans I've seen who seem to be getting pretty worked up about it- SEED Destiny actually annoyed/angered me with a lot of its stuff but AGE doesn't even manage to make me care at all.
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« Reply #1657 on: September 23, 2012, 03:05:44 PM »



Well, after a year, Gundam AGE has finally drawn to a close, and while Iím glad to see this mediocre show finish so they can move on, Iím not sure the ramifications of its massive failure (Go look at the game sales, Hino aimed for 1 million salesÖthey didnít even reach 100k) will be anything any Gundam fan will like at all.

Iím amazed this show was allowed to finish this run considering how poorly it was received during its run and how badly the game tanked. That this show was allowed to finish but that the After War timeline wasnít allowed to play out in full is a goddamned crime.

Lots of spoilers to come, but Iíll refrain from coding it given that reading loads of text in code is a bit irritating, but I donít think itíll matter since this really isnít a show you should bother watching. Iíll take this time to say that the animation and music for the show are both pretty solid, and that alone was able to carry me through the series- though 00 had far superior animation, at the least.

Because of the nature of the work, I understand why the show was structured the way it was. If you had read some of the production info, you would know that essentially, AGE was designed as an ďanthologyĒ type work, where the show would lay out the basics of what was going on, with elaboration to be done in side-story mangas and the like. I donít have a problem with that by itself, the problem is that in so doing they seemed to have forgotten that they were supposed to tell a goddamned story while they were at it. Everything in the show is so obvious in its way of saying ďHey, look at this, itís yet another story that will be told elsewhere!Ē that it constantly takes away precious screentime from a show that, in concept alone, already has a really confined box.

Itís clear what the ďmain threadĒ from the first episode onward was supposed to be though- Flit, who starts off with the purest of intentions (that of protecting those he loves) has it twisted into a zealous desire of exterminating the enemy, so we can have the subtle lesson that becoming a genocidal maniac is a bad thing. While I might sound like Iím criticizing it, Flitís actually the most entertaining part of the show, mostly because I just imagine a kid watching a show like this where a good guy is allowed to say the kinds of things Flit is allowed to say. After a while you can predict exactly what heís going to say because he becomes pretty much a caricature, but itís so hilarious to see him actually say them that I never really minded.



A problem he ended up having though, was that a lot of his story, as in the parts that mightíve actually been interesting, just happened off screen, even the parts they make a big deal out of. Thereís nothing bridging the gap between the kind-hearted boy in G1 and the cold man seen in G2, and itís known that Flit was actually a pretty cheery father for at least the first few years of Asemís life, so it would be nice to know what the hell actually happened. In G2, one of the big things he was trying to do was uncover a conspiracy within the Federation. At the end of the arc, itís revealed that the mastermind is someone who was barely a character, and we just have a narration of him weeding out all the defectors in the Federation. Gee, sure wouldíve been fun to actually see those things happen instead of seeing Flit dick around in Fardain for half a dozen episodes. Actually, this sort of thing happens all over the place in this show- they waste so much time on pointless irrelevancies and then have to rush to cram in all the major plot developments, which ends up having a bunch of the charactersí actions make no sense whatsoever. Especially the predictable "I learned I was wrong" moment for Flit. To say that Yurin alone is the motivation for his rampage is pretty insulting to both the audience and one of the only developed characters in the entire show.

The shame here is that thereís so many good ideas here, one after another, and they just squander them over, and over, and over, so they can move on with the overarching plot, which is a poor decision because the overarching plot is idiotic. The basic premise is in many ways just like Nadesico, except in that show the plot, while also having the same holes this one had, was used to present the theme of that show. Here itís left to stand on its own so it allows the viewer plenty of time to realize how incredibly stupid the premise is. This is without even needing to mention the main villainís plot, which I suppose you can explain away by saying the guy was totally out of his mind, but then it makes you wonder why everyone is so determined to follow his faÁade when his actions so obviously donít mesh up with it. As mentioned earlier, this wasnít even a case of them having no time to fit everything in, because they had several times in this show where they stopped everything in order to fit in something that wasnít important in the least (Fardain, Remi, Lu, Girard, etc).

Also I would finally like to note that while Gundam has rarely been good with female characters (Outside of Turn A and maybe Zeta), AGE is especially heinous in this crime because pretty much all the female characters that exist are there to be killed or to squirt out babies for the next generation of the story.

As for the long term effects of this...well, its probably going to be a while before Sunrise approaches a third party to make a major Gundam production, and given Unicorn's general success it means even more UC stagnation/UC copies are probably scheduled for down the line instead of relatively original concepts like this show had thrown around. The whole generational conflict thing for AGE was such a great idea too. What a complete waste.
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Mickeymac92
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« Reply #1658 on: September 23, 2012, 03:28:24 PM »

As for the long term effects of this...well, its probably going to be a while before Sunrise approaches a third party to make a major Gundam production, and given Unicorn's general success it means even more UC stagnation/UC copies are probably scheduled for down the line instead of relatively original concepts like this show had thrown around. The whole generational conflict thing for AGE was such a great idea too. What a complete waste.

I think you're being a little too cynical, especially since Unicorn had some pretty interesting ideas on its own. Not to say there won't be more UC/UC-Like stuff, but I do think they'll go for more side work adaptions for a while, and there's some freaki' great side works for them to choose from.
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« Reply #1659 on: September 23, 2012, 06:52:24 PM »

:words:

Part of the problem was that Level 5 came at this from an RPG's perspective instead of an anime's or a manga's. There's a lot of filler arcs that feel like filler arcs that occur in RPGs that exist solely to pad out gameplay while covering up the level grinding that you're doing.

And if anybody's gonna take heat from this, then my money's on Level 5 (they're pretty bad outside of Layton/Izuna anyways), although this may be me talking due to my beef with White Knight Chronicles (wasn't surprised with all the misogyny in AGE due to all the misogyny in WKC; ever since that I can't never not notice it whenever I look at something by them).
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« Reply #1660 on: September 24, 2012, 01:14:23 AM »

I think you're being a little too cynical, especially since Unicorn had some pretty interesting ideas on its own. Not to say there won't be more UC/UC-Like stuff, but I do think they'll go for more side work adaptions for a while, and there's some freaki' great side works for them to choose from.

The thing is, I love UC as much the next guy. My complaint isn't so much about the UC universe in and of itself, but rather what the success of UC usually does to the franchise, and this includes the influence it ends up having on AUs. Both Gundam Wing and Gundam SEED take entire chunks of their stories out of UC, which lends to the stagnation but also shows Sunrise that apparently the only thing most audiences want is the same damn story over and over.

It is true there's a wealth of good side works for them to choose from, but I guess the cynic in me is dreading needing to see yet another One-Year-War sidestory and/or more Zeon wanking. =P

Quote
Part of the problem was that Level 5 came at this from an RPG's perspective instead of an anime's or a manga's. There's a lot of filler arcs that feel like filler arcs that occur in RPGs that exist solely to pad out gameplay while covering up the level grinding that you're doing.

The ending of the show was actually known weeks in advance because people had beaten the game, and up to that point the show pretty much followed the game's story exactly (And continued to do so). Some overly-optimistic fans thought they might've deviated from it at the end as a bait-and-switch of sorts, but that of course didn't happen.

Given that the game was released only about a month ago (August), it's highly probable the game and anime were created side-by-side. The mistake they made was the decision to make this into an anime at all. What should've happened was that either they could've told a story in the same universe (which would still accomplish their goal of advertising the game anyway), or allowed the game to be released before adapting it for the screen.

It really does make me wonder if it was Level 5 that wanted to make it into an anime or if Sunrise basically went, "hey, we should make a show out of this too!" I've actually heard many good things about the game itself so maybe if that's all it ever was it wouldn't have caught so much flack.
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« Reply #1661 on: September 24, 2012, 02:30:19 AM »

Ring of Gundam: Tomino's final message?

"After watching it, I didnít know what to think. My Japanese comprehension is getting there but I was able to catch the major points. Last night, I talked with a friend about it and he brought up an interesting point about a possible underlying message: Tomino is telling us to get a life."

I'm not much into Gundam but I find this interesting. Can any of you guys give me your opinion on this?



Ring of Gundam

Edit: Welp, I kinda find my answer in the same blog. :T
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« Reply #1662 on: September 24, 2012, 08:02:58 AM »

So as another person who slogged through all of Gundam Age, here are my thoughts:

I really regret having watched all of that. It is the only anime that I have watched while airing in a while, and I could of made a much better choice. I originally decided to watch it because I like Level 5 and heard that they were involved. When the show started I thought it was a mediocre show, but the ridiculousness of some of the stuff, such as the Titus(or w/e that was called) made it enjoyable enough to watch.

Then they hit Gen 2, and I found that I really enjoyed it. I'm not sure why I enjoyed this part so much. I want to say it was the sheer overpoweredness of the Double Bullet, but I was enjoying the show even before the Double Bullet showed up. It just....worked for me for some reason. Maybe it was just Asemu's personal story worked for me(although a few events in it would of made more sense if rearranged). I really just don't know why, but it worked (for me).

And then we hit Gen 3, and oh dear god, words fail me. This is where everything completely feel apart for me. Ranging from the sheer stupidity of Kio, to the absolute stupidity of the main villian's plan(oh but he repents in the last seconds of his life so everything is ok! >.>), to the character assassination of Zehart, to the sudden about flip in Flit's world view because we need to have a happy ending. It just did not work at all. Speaking of not working, there was also death flag girl. A character dying does not create an emotional response if you can tell they are marked for death within five seconds of their appearance! I could go on about the failings of the third generation, but I'd be here for a week if I did that. I have to wonder how many of the flaws of the third generation were always present, but I just noticed them more in the later part of the series.

Anyways, a decent concept but it failed horribly in the execution. I think it would have been better had they cut out the third generation and made the final conflict end up being between Flit and Asemu's view points. Kio's view point really didn't add much to the whole conflict because Asemu had already reached a similar position, but Asemu was a whole lot less idealistic. Of course the show ended up with Kio being right since Kio can do now wrong. I think I'll stop now before I end up going on a Kio is a Mary Sue tirade.
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« Reply #1663 on: September 25, 2012, 09:33:24 PM »

Little Lady loves Studio Ghibli so last night I finally watched Howl's Moving Castle, wow, loved it, loved it, loved it!
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« Reply #1664 on: September 25, 2012, 09:49:27 PM »

I saw Howl's Moving Castle 2 or 3 times, and still don't have a freakin' clue what was going on in that movie.
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