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Author Topic: 1UP: Why the Golden Age of JRPGs is Over  (Read 10896 times)
Alisha
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« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2011, 07:12:57 PM »

i think the last story not selling well has more to do with the majority of people that have wii's buying stuff like wii fit.

also i agree jrpgs dont need to transform into wrpgs
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Eusis
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« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2011, 07:21:53 PM »

Cross pollination can be good however (see how Gears of War's combat was influenced by RE4). It's not so much that all of us want Japanese RPGs to be designed the same way as many Western RPGs, it's that seeing some of the best ideas used in them can be nice, or seeing their own take on, say, the open world, much like Breakdown or Jumping Flash provided an alternative in FPSes (not that Breakdown's much of a shooter.) I at the least don't want ALL JRPGs to be like WRPGs aside from maybe aspects like "better sidequests" which is what games like Final Fantasy VI have done better than many other JRPGs anyway, and the whole genre was more or less born out of games like Wizardry and Ultima anyway.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2011, 08:09:07 PM »

By in large, I think the majority of jRPGs could stand to "grow up" a little, and not superficially (tits, ass, guns, bathroom philosophy). When I played Mass Effect 2, I never felt like I had to overlook some aspect in order to enjoy it (save, maybe, the final boss). But even in my favorite jRPGs, I find myself having to turn a blind eye to some aspect or part of the game, in order to not feel dumber for having liked it. Either the story becomes rediculous and pretentious (FFXIII), or your faced with one or two really annoying characters that don't fit in (bratty children... or adults). Sometimes I think jRPGs try too hard to be smart or clever. To be clever, you actually haveto be clever... not pretend that you are!

That said, Western games aren't perfect either. Red Dead Redemtion had a lot of groaner annoying characters that I would expect more to come from a jRPG. And the Assassin's Creed series has similar problems to many jRPGs of swinging into "WTF Religion!" territory.

BTW: Leyvieur, you're response was absolutely right, I should have specified "console". I was just thinking Planescape Torment and LucasArts when I said "obvious exceptions", but I should have specified that we were talking consoles specifically.
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« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2011, 08:15:04 PM »

Didn't Obsidian say they wanted to make a WRPG out of anime characters, citing Chrono Trigger as an influence?  Did that happen yet?

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« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2011, 11:38:38 PM »

I really enjoyed the article. I think a lot of it was actually summed up fairly well by Hideo Kojima in that interview he gave (I forget by who) a couple months ago (the one where he made fun of steroid space marines and effeminate males with huge swords). And has been reiterated by several posters here.


The JRPG is not dead and is not going to die anytime soon. There is still plenty of good work being done. I've accumulated quite a backlog of these games over the past few years.

This whole thing about a disparity in maturity level between J and W is complete bullocks. The W version is just to innocuous for many to notice because you live in the culture it was created in. I'm getting really tired of people talking about Western games being mature when all most of them have done is pump up the nudity, sex, violence, and foul language.

Planescape: Torment has been brought up a lot in this thread. It is certainly a shining example of WRPG storytelling, but have any of you realized that that sort storytelling is pretty much impossible these days? Yeah, the characters are great, that could be done again. But the quality of the storytelling (and the characters) is way to dependent on the high quality of its prose. It is closer much closer to a novel than a movie and movies is pretty much how every RPG, J or W, is going these days.
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hell_snake
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« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2011, 01:11:49 AM »

This whole thing about a disparity in maturity level between J and W is complete bullocks. The W version is just to innocuous for many to notice because you live in the culture it was created in. I'm getting really tired of people talking about Western games being mature when all most of them have done is pump up the nudity, sex, violence, and foul language.

I certainly live in a country with a culture that is the opposite of the west's, and I still find WRPGs much more mature than JRPGs.

I may not be a huge fan of sex or nudity in games, but hey, it can be avoided for the most part. Games like Deus Ex: HR with its concept and premise, and The Witcher 2 with its characters, writing and quest design, sure feel more maturely handled than the JRPGs we see today. And those are just recent examples.

What JRPGs should I compare those to in this gen of home consoles? The closest thing to an answer I could come up with was Nier. The hell?! I really liked that game, but for very specific reasons. Gameplay not being one of them of course.

Don't get me wrong, I still like some of the non-M-rated JRPGs we're getting and would never want certain Japanese devs to sacrifice their unique style. But in order to break out of handhelds, which are the only platforms with visible effort from the genre right now, devs will have to get out of their comfort zones sooner or later and hire some competent writers if they can't handle their shit. That, and figure out how to efficiently manage a development team.
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« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2011, 01:28:59 AM »

This whole thing about a disparity in maturity level between J and W is complete bullocks. The W version is just to innocuous for many to notice because you live in the culture it was created in. I'm getting really tired of people talking about Western games being mature when all most of them have done is pump up the nudity, sex, violence, and foul language.
JRPG humor involves comparing breast sizes to fruit, harem jokes, will-they-won't-they slip of the tongues, etc. QED, I win.
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2011, 04:07:46 AM »

This whole thing about a disparity in maturity level between J and W is complete bullocks. The W version is just to innocuous for many to notice because you live in the culture it was created in. I'm getting really tired of people talking about Western games being mature when all most of them have done is pump up the nudity, sex, violence, and foul language.
JRPG humor involves comparing breast sizes to fruit, harem jokes, will-they-won't-they slip of the tongues, etc. QED, I win.

Objection!

While it may be true that said stereotypes exist within the boundaries of JRPG humor; there can be no doubt that WRPGs have their own brand of vile, immature, or outright tasteless humor that places it pretty much equal on the scale of annoyances.

Take that!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 04:09:27 AM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
Eusis
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« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2011, 04:17:04 AM »

OBJECTION! No one likes Peter Molyneux.
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Ashton
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« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2011, 04:37:39 AM »

This whole thing about a disparity in maturity level between J and W is complete bullocks. The W version is just to innocuous for many to notice because you live in the culture it was created in. I'm getting really tired of people talking about Western games being mature when all most of them have done is pump up the nudity, sex, violence, and foul language.
JRPG humor involves comparing breast sizes to fruit, harem jokes, will-they-won't-they slip of the tongues, etc. QED, I win.

Objection!

While it may be true that said stereotypes exist within the boundaries of JRPG humor; there can be no doubt that WRPGs have their own brand of vile, immature, or outright tasteless humor that places it pretty much equal on the scale of annoyances.

Take that!
This is true.

But, my argument wasn't that WRPGs never have stupid and imature humor. My argument was that such bad humor is much more commonly found within JRPGs. Play a Tales game, a Final Fantasy game, hell, even some recent SMT games, they all have the sickening high school animu jokes that detract from the overall narrative. Now compare games like Mass Effect, Fallout, etc. where most jokes are pretty satirical and sarcastic in nature as opposed to the generic "oh that girl has big bouncy boobies, I wish I had big bouncy boobies, ufuuuuuuuuuu~ <3" Point being, such humor is much less commonly found in western made games unless they're pretty much all the game is riding on (see: Duke Nukem).

The closest I can recollect is the Sexbot joke from New Vegas and even then it was poking fun at the bartender's sexual fetishes instead of paying lip service (or tit service, as it were) to the fans.
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ZeronHitaro
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« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2011, 04:54:35 AM »

This whole thing about a disparity in maturity level between J and W is complete bullocks. The W version is just to innocuous for many to notice because you live in the culture it was created in. I'm getting really tired of people talking about Western games being mature when all most of them have done is pump up the nudity, sex, violence, and foul language.
JRPG humor involves comparing breast sizes to fruit, harem jokes, will-they-won't-they slip of the tongues, etc. QED, I win.

Objection!

While it may be true that said stereotypes exist within the boundaries of JRPG humor; there can be no doubt that WRPGs have their own brand of vile, immature, or outright tasteless humor that places it pretty much equal on the scale of annoyances.

Take that!
This is true.

But, my argument wasn't that WRPGs never have stupid and imature humor. My argument was that such bad humor is much more commonly found within JRPGs. Play a Tales game, a Final Fantasy game, hell, even some recent SMT games, they all have the sickening high school animu jokes that detract from the overall narrative. Now compare games like Mass Effect, Fallout, etc. where most jokes are pretty satirical and sarcastic in nature as opposed to the generic "oh that girl has big bouncy boobies, I wish I had big bouncy boobies, ufuuuuuuuuuu~ <3" Point being, such humor is much less commonly found in western made games unless they're pretty much all the game is riding on (see: Duke Nukem).

The closest I can recollect is the Sexbot joke from New Vegas and even then it was poking fun at the bartender's sexual fetishes instead of paying lip service (or tit service, as it were) to the fans.

Amusing (in a good way) that you should mention Mass Effect because after Eusis' post I went digging through Youtube for more examples of WRPG humor as I haven't nearly the exposure to the genre as I have JRPGs. For reference this is the video I found. While some of the humor in there is pretty decent there was plenty of things I personally (as humor is subjective) put on an equal pedestal to JRPG nonsense and are as equally prevalent in Western culture as a whole.

00:27:  "It's funny because guys are totally into weird and wacky porn because they're guys; even if the victim here is innocent".

01:30: Mentioning for the millionth time that cybernetic life forms always mention that humans are obsessed with sex, booze, and rock n' roll.

03:10: 9/11 parody humor. (Although the joke at the end saves the scene I'll admit)

07:32: Fat and/or decrepit guy think's he's all powerful.

8:58: Tough guy drinking himself into a concussion.

I would attempt to re-enforce this with examples from Fallout but alas presently my Youtube searches for "Fallout, humor, funny" keyword combinations seem to result in little more than people blowing NPC heads off, Super Mutant dialog, and game mods to make fart sounds out of explosions. XP
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 10:36:09 AM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
darcthelad
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« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2011, 10:11:54 AM »

I've played little of WRPGs, but I certainly wish we could do away with the kiddy stuff in Japan-born entertainment. The lolis are especially irksome now that voice acting is so prevalent.

Don't get me wrong. I understand that games such as Pokemon thrive with cute, kiddy stuff (and I don't propose making massive changes to games that belong cute) but Xenogears, Dynasty/Samurai Warriors, Star Ocean, etc. are supposed to be taken seriously far too often to be filled with lolis and whatnot.

Take Star Ocean: Till the End of Time, for example. You have the real-time battle system to satisfy casual gamers as well as Fayt, Cliff, and Nel being tough enough not to drive away young men/teenage boys... but then they put in Peppita and Farleen. Basically, it goes back to what CDFN and Chronix112 were saying: culturally, it can only appeal to one nation between Japan and the U.S. It's no surprise to us here in the states that lolis are disliked, but the Japanese developers don't seem to be hearing that from anyone before giving loli voices to characters that don't need loli voices and would be a better match for a normal woman's voice (like Farleen).

I've been thinking this for a while now because FF7 is rather not-cutesy compared to most JRPGs. Despite having Yuffie and Cait Sith, their lead roles are all filled by tough dudes/dudettes or at least adult-looking characters (Aeris). Contrast that to something like Tales of Symphonia where they're all cute kids and you'll see what I think drives casual gamers away from RPGs, even if those RPGs have lots of action and are fast-paced.
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Alan_01987
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« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2011, 12:19:29 PM »

Since we're discussing it a lot in this thread, here's a feature on the state of jrpgs in the West:

http://www.1up.com/features/golden-age-jrpgs-xenoblade-pandora-tower-last-story-xseed

I see this 1UP article as damage control at NoA's request because even back to golden age JRPGs, it is not like we got every one of them and if any one thought JRPGs are died then what you think about Japanese Arcades, Horror, Overhead Action Adventure, Beat'em up which seen now as lower form of games.
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Zendervai
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« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2011, 02:29:29 PM »

On the off chance of that being true, it won't work. Xenoblade and the Last Story are both rather different from the typical JRPG, at least from what I've seen.
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PotRoast
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« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2011, 03:25:22 PM »

But, my argument wasn't that WRPGs never have stupid and imature humor. My argument was that such bad humor is much more commonly found within JRPGs. Play a Tales game, a Final Fantasy game, hell, even some recent SMT games, they all have the sickening high school animu jokes that detract from the overall narrative. Now compare games like Mass Effect, Fallout, etc. where most jokes are pretty satirical and sarcastic in nature as opposed to the generic "oh that girl has big bouncy boobies, I wish I had big bouncy boobies, ufuuuuuuuuuu~ <3" Point being, such humor is much less commonly found in western made games unless they're pretty much all the game is riding on (see: Duke Nukem).

The closest I can recollect is the Sexbot joke from New Vegas and even then it was poking fun at the bartender's sexual fetishes instead of paying lip service (or tit service, as it were) to the fans.

Your definition of maturity is much too narrow. You're focusing too much on humor and not on the game as a whole. Immature jokes can fit into mature games if the context is set appropriately. For instance, I thought it was fine in Persona 4 because you were playing teenagers and teenage boys are generally real interested in boobs!

You also seem to enjoy comparing top marked WRPGs against middle of the road JRPGs. It's no wonder you're drawing the conclusion you do. It would be like me saying American authors lack maturity compared to British authors and then cite Stephanie Meyer and Charles Dickens as evidence.
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